Curse

Fitz Rinley · Dec 16, 2008, 02:58 PM // 14:58

The problems with the SF and other farming nerfs is manifold.

1. Only a small part of the people will ever be outgoing enough to want to be with and enjoy everyone. Beyond that, small groups are the human norm. In the study of man, no dig site of more than 15 or more population has been found without signs of violent conflict.

2. The extreme range of skills, class options, and varied skill bar arrangements means that not ever collaborative effort can succeed. In fact, since one cannot readily change classes and set up skill trains with the same numerical effect and merely different graphical presentation, learning to be successful with all ten classes is made highly difficult.

3. Very occasionally skills will be dependent upon other skills effects in order to work. Each class that has skills that depend on an effect can cause that effect relatively easily. There are no skills that depend entirely on effects caused by other classes, nor are the symbols on the screen sufficient to make that kind of opportunity useful. Especially under the lag which is normally suffered throughout the game. So truly interactive team builds are at best very limited.

The justification for nerfs have been under concepts of balancing PvP skills, and increasing multi-player instead of solo play. It is similar to the recent changes in monk and rit skills that have wiped many of my most useful skill bars. They are aimed at eliminating the effectiveness of heroes so as to force more multi-player play.

4. Even GW has had to admit that PvP and PvE cannot adequately be consolidated under the skill systems which have been employed. Constant rebalancing for PvP has continuously led to the destruction of PvE enjoyment to such an extent the skills are now separated. The separation of these styles of play is due to: i. Differences in lag making PvP the game for those who can afford to purchase elite machines and elite ISP services, ii. Differences in personality and culture on the nature of what is acceptable competitive behavior, and iii. How are defined definition cooperation, competition, and opposition. (Competitors have respect for one another, and in my experience, this is not observable in the PvP environment.)

5. Solo play is preferred on one hand because one has a higher chance of getting drops, even with loot scaling. Interest in getting more drops is based upon two completely different purposes. One of these is greed: people want drops that they can sell to others because they are 1337 in some way. Another is the desire to obtain certain items not available except in drops because they go with a character’s theme. Those who are only looking for money will rarely be concerned about the entertainment value of plot, theme, and appearance. The game stories mean little or nothing to them. Those who are plot and theme oriented are more concerned with their entertainment and will at some level of mild to greatly resent the forced farming in order to find or purchase what entertains them. Under both conditions, botting, e-baying for gold, or other EULA violations have been inspired in order to achieve entertainment. Those who want the gold obtained through sales do not want players to be able to do things for themselves and oppose anything that would disrupt their accumulation of wealth. Those who are more interested in theme and role play will rarely if ever have the wealth needed to purchase from those only concerned with sales.

One example of a game item like this is the Superior of Vigor, which I have read is limited to one per character in drops. That remains ludicrous. I have 30 characters. I have had 2 Sup of Vigors drop in 3 years of play. I ought to be able to put a Superior of Vigor on 3 armors per active character from drops alone. Someone else has all my Sup of Vigor drops and I cannot nor will I ever be able to afford them. Further, I will be denied the ability to play effectively in the different suits of armor I collect (and yes that 9 health matters, I have seen people survive to make a difference on less than 9 health too many times in three years). And so people farm in order to be effective when they play and to get the things that will make their play fun.

These nerfs intended to change the nature of what we are as a species will fail in their objective. We will never be willingly more social than we are naturally. We can be forced to work together unwillingly, and as we can see by the devastation of Yugoslavia, Iraq, etc. this kind of liberal forced love policy is superficial at best. The inspiration to work separately from others has always been based on the lack of effectiveness in PUG’s and in obtaining those things that make one’s play both entertaining and effective. The interest in going outside the economy provided can only be understood in the marginalization of enjoyment in order to force team play and bolster a trade system that has never been enjoyable. In summary, the reason for the nerfs is an attempt by the powers that be to make up for things they cause to be unenjoyable while still leaving these things unenjoyable, inefficient, and contrary to human nature.

FoxBat · Dec 16, 2008, 03:25 PM // 15:25

Quote:

After repeated adjustments to both the skill and the Underworld, Shadow Form continues to dominate PvE farming. All the adjustments we have made to this style of farming have aimed to slow players down but not eliminate it as a viable farming option.

http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Arena...tes#Assassin_2

Anet is FINE with people doing solo farms all they want, their complaint is that this is edging out all other farming builds, and cheapening certain sectors of the economy. You didn't need a team to farm stuff before shadow form, and you won't after.

(And ironically, the largest abuse of the skill is in an 8 MAN UWSC team.)

upier · Dec 16, 2008, 03:55 PM // 15:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fitz Rinley

Constant rebalancing for PvP has continuously led to the destruction of PvE enjoyment to such an extent the skills are now separated.

That's plain and simple bullshit.
PvE is dead because of the same reason that PvP is dead.
A.Net pulled the plug.
You simply can not put the blame onto one format for receiving the NEEDED attention while the other one didn't.

Parson Brown · Dec 16, 2008, 04:12 PM // 16:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fitz Rinley

One example of a game item like this is the Superior of Vigor, which I have read is limited to one per character in drops. That remains ludicrous. I have 30 characters. I have had 2 Sup of Vigors drop in 3 years of play. I ought to be able to put a Superior of Vigor on 3 armors per active character from drops alone. Someone else has all my Sup of Vigor drops and I cannot nor will I ever be able to afford them. Further, I will be denied the ability to play effectively in the different suits of armor I collect (and yes that 9 health matters, I have seen people survive to make a difference on less than 9 health too many times in three years). And so people farm in order to be effective when they play and to get the things that will make their play fun.

1) You certainly aren't limited to finding 1 sup vigor per character.
2) Can't afford 16k after 3 years of play?
3) You can run around with no runes/inscriptions and be effective in PvE. Heck, you could be naked in some areas. So, I don't think that 9 health is keeping you from being "effective."

pumpkin pie · Dec 16, 2008, 04:48 PM // 16:48

there is only one reason and one reason only why the game is nerf: to keep the player interested. You're looking at it from the wrong perspective, the developer does not aim to change human nature, they are trying to run a business.

ac1inferno · Dec 16, 2008, 04:55 PM // 16:55

I don't see why people are crying over [[Shadow Form]. In PvE, it can still be maintained at 14+ Shadow Arts with [[Glyph of Swiftness], [[Deadly Paradox], and a perfect enchanting mod. Similarly, A/Me or Me/A can maintain Shadow Form by just using [[Arcane Echo] and Deadly Paradox (Cast Deadly Paradox before Arcane Echo).

Enko · Dec 16, 2008, 04:58 PM // 16:58

in about 2 years of playing, i've picked up maybe 25-30 superior vigor runes. whoever you heard that rumor of one sup vig per character from was an idiot.

Skyy High · Dec 16, 2008, 05:05 PM // 17:05

Wow. This is the best QQ post I've ever seen.

MarlinBackna · Dec 16, 2008, 05:12 PM // 17:12

Quote:

Very occasionally skills will be dependent upon other skills effects in order to work. Each class that has skills that depend on an effect can cause that effect relatively easily. There are no skills that depend entirely on effects caused by other classes, nor are the symbols on the screen sufficient to make that kind of opportunity useful. Especially under the lag which is normally suffered throughout the game. So truly interactive team builds are at best very limited.

The reason they don't have this because it is hard as shit to pull off! Imagine having over yell over Vent "Hey, I have skill A up. Soandso, you can now use skill B. Whatsyourname, you on deck for Skill C!!!!" for EVERY BATTLE. It's freaking stupid and contrived. I think the best interactive skills I've seen in any game were the ones involving Cracked Armor. Warriors and Paragons had skills that affected enemies with Cracked Armor (namely provide DW), but they actually had no skills that gave Cracked Armor, so they had to rely on Necros, Rits, or Eles to give the enemies cracked armor.
I think there is plenty of synergy to be found in team builds. It is just that some of those are not the best builds to be used.

Quote:

i. Differences in lag making PvP the game for those who can afford to purchase elite machines and elite ISP services

While this is a concern, it is DEFINITELY not valid to the average or even elite PvP player. I'd say 75-80% of the GW PvP population (even including most of the elite PvP population) have above average ISP services, so everyone is experiencing some lag, making the playing field somewhat even. Dial-up people know what they are missing, and probably don't even play GW PvP (or PvE for that matter) because of all the lag. This complaint is stupid AND has nothing to do with nerfs.

Quote:

2. The extreme range of skills, class options, and varied skill bar arrangements means that not ever collaborative effort can succeed. In fact, since one cannot readily change classes and set up skill trains with the same numerical effect and merely different graphical presentation, learning to be successful with all ten classes is made highly difficult.

Now this is complete bullshit if you are talking about PvP. Never have I seen a game like Guild Wars were I can easily change attributes, armor, professions, and skills with no penalties. Even elite PvErs have a slot specifically saved for PvP so that they can roll whatever characters are needed. And about the learning part, it is the same in all MMOs. Some people are better healers, others are better tanks, still others are better damage dealers. It is simple specialization, and it works. You don't need to learn inside-and-out all ten professions to be successful at GW or to simply enjoy it. If fact, you really don't need to learn ANY of them completely to enjoy GW. I sure as hell don't know my mains to their fullest exent, and I've been playing for 3 years and I still enjoy GW!

Quote:

Wow. This is the best of the worst QQ post I've ever seen.

Fixed.

HawkofStorms · Dec 16, 2008, 05:15 PM // 17:15

I agree with Upier. Skill rebalances hardly "destroy the PvE enjoyment." I primarily play PvE and ENJOY skill balances tremedously.

People who complain about their PvE builds being nerfed by a skill BUFF are the same people who just steal their builds off PvXwiki and don't do any thinking for themselves.

For example, look at the talk page for the skill "Hundred Blades" on the wiki. There are TONS of people screaming about how this was a nerf (because they couldn't use it to build up adrenaline anymore) even though..
A) the axe options or whirlwind attack that had + damage was already a better option
B) it deals the same damage as the old HB (non-armor ignoring ~20 slashing damage to adjacent foes), but instead with EVERY swing of the weapon, instead of once every 5 seconds.
C) It now has a larger aoe
D) Its an aoe slashing damage skill, something that hasn't really existed before and allows for tons of damage with Mark of Pain

Look at the warrior subforum. People there have already come up with tons of new builds and uses for the new overpowered HB, getting over 500 damage per second on various farming builds. People on the wiki's talk notes are still complaining about how it is a nerf.

People who use their brains adapt to skill balances and come up with new builds. People who are lazy complain and then steal those new builds once they are popularized.

CronkTheImpaler · Dec 16, 2008, 05:16 PM // 17:16

Note to OP:

The fact you are draggin philosphy into the world of GW is laughable. This GAME is run on a business model. If the A-Net team had there choice i think they would have done things a little differently from start to finish. However, hindsight is 20/20, and now they have to sleep in the bedthey have made. GW2 is in the works and if i had to guess they are goin to have to spring that title sooner then they would like to.

The economy being what it is will force A-Net to deliver the new title before all interest in GW is lost. People walk away from GW every day not because they dont like the game but because the are BORED TO TEARS!

PvP and PvE skill balance updates are added simply to give the common player soemthing to work with, something to conquer and overcome. I dont think A-Net gives two Poops about the human condition or whether we will kill one another if were in groups of more then 15.

Cronk

BTW in china they found literally 1000's of human remains together in a valley. no evidence of violence was present. it was dated to the 12 century AD. \Sourced from National Geographic.

Fitz Rinley · Dec 16, 2008, 05:20 PM // 17:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by Upier

You simply can not put the blame onto one format for receiving the NEEDED attention while the other one didn't.

Apparently you didnt read it. I put the blame on the non-existent ANet (NC West) for attempting to maintain a unified structure that forced inappropriate alterations on things that should not have been linked together to begin with. The blame was not placed upon venue but agenda. Ranking representatives of NC West have told me directly that this is a Multi-player game not a solo one and no one is meant to play solo, nor will they support things even when they are right, if it contradicts this agenda.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Enko

in about 2 years of playing, i've picked up maybe 25-30 superior vigor runes. whoever you heard that rumor of one sup vig per character from was an idiot.

It isnt that you may not find 25-30, although apparently you have found most of mine. It is that only one is generated per character slot. There is insufficient for everyone to have one on each set of armor they have.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Parson Brown

1) You certainly aren't limited to finding 1 sup vigor per character.
2) Can't afford 16k after 3 years of play?
3) You can run around with no runes/inscriptions and be effective in PvE. Heck, you could be naked in some areas. So, I don't think that 9 health is keeping you from being "effective."

Never said you were limited to finding one per character, but they do not generate more than one per character. And no, I cannot afford 1,000k plus just for Sup of Vig runes on armors for HoM and entertaining use even after 3 years. And while I may be able to run around Churrir Fields nekkid without having to worry too much, it is not the same in the Domain of Anguish - We (those I play with, others like them, and myself) should be able to wear elite armors on any character at any level of difficulty and not be required to go nekkid and use these 5 skills only from this class special build based in their exclusive skill set in order to play in a manner that entertains us.

Quote:

Originally Posted by FoxBat

Anet is FINE with people doing solo farms all they want, their complaint is that this is edging out all other farming builds, and cheapening certain sectors of the economy. You didn't need a team to farm stuff before shadow form, and you won't after.

(And ironically, the largest abuse of the skill is in an 8 MAN UWSC team.)

Ironically, you are correct. The most enjoyable use of the Assassin SF builds were in multiplayer structures such as VSF that are now no longer worth bothering to do. Members of my alliance often went to VSF as a full group of 8 while joking around on TS with one another at a place where we might find something interesting or personally useful. The rest was pretty much merch fodder. And what NC West calls cheapening the economy is anything that would allow regular, casual, and normal-human players the opportunity to obtain things they might enjoy for themselves without being treated as second and third class entities for not having 10-18 hours a day to be pro-1337 playas.

Rhamia Darigaz · Dec 16, 2008, 05:23 PM // 17:23

inb4 OP's epic fail QQ thread.

tcratty · Dec 16, 2008, 05:25 PM // 17:25

i have been playing for 3 years and i have never got even one rune of superior vigor lolz got alot of major vigor ones though

CronkTheImpaler · Dec 16, 2008, 05:25 PM // 17:25

as was stated above, there is no set amount of sup vigors per character slot. that is simply horse squeeze. ive gotten literally dozens of them. especially just doing a little solo farming of ettins or naga. You can can a couple a week. you dont need to invest 18 hours a day to be an elite "playa"

Cronk

Tyla · Dec 16, 2008, 05:31 PM // 17:31

Sorry, but you're too late. Call when there have been some serious, undeserving nerfs. Such as Frenzy being nerfed.

Also, immunity shouldn't be in games unless it's going to be a code-activated cheat which steals away achievements.

FlamingMetroid · Dec 16, 2008, 05:37 PM // 17:37

nobody cares about about your PvE farming bullshit, get over it

enter_the_zone · Dec 16, 2008, 05:41 PM // 17:41

Gotta say, I think the OP is right about pushing people towards grouping. PVE Skills, anyone?

TrippieHippie89 · Dec 16, 2008, 05:44 PM // 17:44

first of all...why the $#@! do you have 30 chars? there are 10 professions, so even if you for some reason wanted 1 male 1 female of each thats only 20 slots

secondly i play 2-3 hours a day, some days not at all and i have no problem affording my 15k armors and all the weapon swaps i need

make one of your dervs into a runner, chest runner or town to town runner, plenty of money to be made there, and you can do it all day without worrying about the farming code kicking in

droks at 2k a head with a full party is 10k for a 10-15 minute run
Ascalon-la is usually 1.5k-2k a head
a full tyrian run (ascalon-beacons, down to droks, up to toa, out to sanctum and through the desert, the whole shebang) i can usually get 25-30k per head making close to 200k for an hour to an hour and a half's work

and if you need a running build, pm me ingame
<---ign

lilraceangel3 · Dec 16, 2008, 05:52 PM // 17:52

Wow QQ more huh? Seriously if your so upset and dissillusioned with GW go play WoW or Runescape or anything else. 30 chars?!? How can you NOT make money even playing a few hours during the week or weekend?